- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- technology@lemmy.ml
“Signal is being blocked in Venezuela and Russia. The app is a popular choice for encrypted messaging and people trying to avoid government censorship, and the blocks appear to be part of a crackdown on internal dissent in both countries…”
It’s like a medal of honor for a privacy preserving app 😄
Indeed. If whatsapp isn’t on the list, then I have all the confirmation I need.
The Russian government has also allegedly begun preparations to block the WhatsApp messaging app.
https://kyivindependent.com/messenger-signal-blocked-in-russia-media-says/
Some US bank got in trouble for using it internally.
in trouble with who?
This is a story from August 2023, and was covered in many outlets (I quote here NYT for reference only)
Federal regulators continued their crackdown against employees of Wall Street firms using private messaging apps to communicate, with 11 brokerage firms and investment advisers agreeing Tuesday to pay $549 million in fines.
Wells Fargo, BNP Paribas, Société Générale and Bank of Montreal were hit with the biggest penalties by the Securities and Exchange Commission and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. Together, the brokerage and investment advisory arms of those four financial institutions accounted for nearly 90 percent of the fines, according to statements released by the regulators.
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Zucks check didn’t clear yet.
Maduro uninstalled whatsapp live on television a few days ago
“Banned in 15 dicatorships!”
could matrix.org be as easily blocked, since it’s decentralized I’m wondering?
At least it means that Signal is working as intended if they are blocking it, I guess that they don’t have back doors.
Being decentralized prevents DNS or IP blocks but not blocks through DPI.
Signal has an option to masquerade it’s traffic as regular HTTPS, I don’t know if Matrix can do such a thing.
I can answer this! All matrix calls are over https APIs. Ports and addresses are stored in a text file on the base domain or in DNS txt entry.
Thanks, nice to have someone knowledgeable.
Would you say matrix is censorship resistant? I’ve very limited knowledge of it but given what you said I imagine that if I was trying to block matrix I would just need to query the url of the text file and check the DNS text entry, if either exist just add the domain to the blocklist.
I was trying to block matrix I would just need to query the url of the text file
Ok this raises a question for me. How do you find a url like this which wouldn’t be like, “linked on their site” or something? I know it must be possible to like dump a URL list for a site to a textfile, I’m just wondering how.
Like say I want to find all the super secret pages on www.subgenius.com, they link some but say www.subgenius.com/pam1/pamphlet.html wasn’t directly linked (it is, but pretend lol) but could be accessed by the URL, how would I find that URL? Can you just run like
someprogram -a www.subgenius.com -o subgenius.txt
because that would be cool.Maybe I’ve misunderstood how it works. I thought that when connecting to a matrix instance you would point to the domain name and the text file would be on a standard location (as with
/robots.txt
or all the files in/.well-known/
) so it would be easily discoverable. In fact I just checked and matrix does use/.well-known/
so one should be able to identify matrix servers by querying these URLs. Unless their is a way to use a non-standard location, but that would require further configuration on the client I guess.And just to answer your question, the only way to find some hidden file would be to brute force. This could obviously be extremely time consuming if the URL is long and random enough, especially if you add rate limiting (this last thing could be circumvented by using multiple IPs to scan, which would be easy for a state actor).
Edit: I’ve just realized I wasn’t answering to the same person, the first part of the message was more for @TarantulaFudge@startrek.website
Yeah the main thing is that the ports and addresses can change and it’s nbd. From a firewall perspective, it’s impossible to block them all. Especially when the clients are doing mundane https requests. Even if the server goes down or partial connectivity, the channel can still be used.
But this seems easy to automatically block, no? If a client is querying an unknown domain check for some Matrix related data in
/.well-known/
and add it to the block list if there is. And since the servers are publicly advertising the port used you just need to periodically check the list of known matrix domains you are creating in the first step.Russia is already doing DPI and blocking ESNI so that seems easy. A more widespread usage of ECH would help everyone, as is Signal advocating, but that’s not the case yet.
Ah maybe I’ve misunderstood then, lol. I didn’t know any of that. Oh well!
Matrix is in fact decentralized but in reality it is not so much, I don’t know the number exactly but the majority of users use the matrix.org server
Those numbers only include instances that have telemetry enabled
Do you have numbers without?
How would you?
No clue, not familiar with Matrix to that level.
I mean, that’s not specific to Matrix. Telemetry is the tool used to get the numbers, so I don’t see how you would collect numbers on servers that don’t report numbers.
Theoretically they could be reported by federated servers that do have it enabled
Im surprised there are zero calls to any official matrix server(s) from those instances.
Not even random API for metadata, update status, etc?
Telemtry is a word. It only means as much as it means in each context, and without full context it means little atm.
Do you have a resource where I could learn more about what data Matrix considers telemetry?
People who live in countries where DNS and IP blocks are common probably use a different server. I’ve been running my own for over a year and it works like a dream
could matrix.org be as easily blocked, since it’s decentralized I’m wondering?>
Or SimpleX?
It cannot be easily blocked especially if you use your own homeserver every homeserver replicates the channel and it can operate without the original server! That’s why signal and telegram are inherently flawed.
To be devils advocate in a sense, this may mean that it doesn’t have any backdoors that Russia or Venezuela can use, but the NSA or something still could have one of their own.
Matrix doesn’t have encryption as the default
Also Signal doesn’t have any backdoors. I can say that with high certainty as it has been audited more than any other messager.
It doesn’t matter if it is a business entity operating under a government then you can never really know because gag orders. Centralized servers can be blocked. Telegram and Signal apps could have a back door. This is why open stack is important. And not just the code. Also encryption is default for p2p one on one conversations. It’s not in channels by default because it can complicate public use.
Yes
blocks appear to be part of a crackdown on internal dissent in both countries.
Or… you know… at least for Venezuela, the USA constantly fucking around with their elections and politics and local assets using Signal or something. Maybe, I dunno?
Yeah. Telegram, should be next, there’s a huge risk with it too. And email! Social networks too, just in case. And postal mail, we can’t forget that. We should crack down any form of uncensored communication.
All for the benefit of the people, of course. \s
I mean signal was funded in part by the US intelligence community up until last year.
The current president of Signal is also still happy to do interviews with US-defense-oriented think tanks like Lawfare.
They probably still are funded by USIntel, considering how interested RFA was in pushing Signal in privacy-oriented spaces.
Unrelated to what the previous person is saying (banned because it was used by dissidents), but still, we have the source code. If you’re arguing they are somehow accessing the data, what’s encrypted and what isn’t is known.
Signal knows who you are taking to. You can build a network of contacts based on that information. When you send messages your phone number is protected but your ip address is not, and the receivers phone number is not protected. So you can find two people chatting based on that information. The app automatically sends a delivery receipt when a message is received to the other user, exposing the senders phone number and IP address.
However, opposition in the country is backed by western agencies and NGOs, and likely their primary means of communication is signal since it’s backed by western intelligence, meaning, western actors believe it to be safe from external interference.
I’m not arguing that the west is reading messages. I’m arguing that they believe it’s a safe haven for their agents because they pay money to ensure it’s safe for their agents. If it wasn’t, they wouldn’t use it. Its the same reason why the intelligence community in the west is a large supporter of the tor network. They use it in the field and operate their own exit nodes to protect their operations.
That’s what you fail to understand. It’s open source, it has been audited. Venezuela and any other country can check and crack the encryption if has holes in it. The long first paragraph is something that’s not a secret, but widely known.
You know what’s also safe? Encrypted emails. VPNs. Matrix.
If you think this is a movement against foreign agents, you should think it’s useless too. For a sufficiently motivated agent, this will be trivial to overcome. For the general population? Not so much.
Unless next all forms of private communication re forbidden, of curse. Surely what people on a privacy community advocate for.
Is the opposition using those services?
Which ones? Signal? Likely. Secure mail and VPN? For sure. Can “foreign agents” use them? Certainly.
Who will have a hard time to use them? General population. Signal is the privacy communication service with the lowest barrier to entry, in terms of cost and setup complexity. Not a tool for spies, but for average Joe.
What service do you recommend BTW? That ensures government cannot snoop and prevents “foreign agents”. It seems that any privacy is a risk, so I’m curious what a privacy minded person thinks should be OK.
well, except for all the times Signal just “forgets” to update the published source code of a year or so. Other than that its perfectly open source
Funded by the US? Well thats the entire internet, including Tor, Linux and Matrix…
Amazing how much BS is spread here
The only relevant part is the client, which as always been open source.
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In UK don’t ban them, but jail you if they don’t like your posts, more democratic.
The people inciting race riots deserve everything they get.
I’m not aware of the kingdom of whataboutistan. Is it related to this post somehow?
Yes, different kind of censorship in the world. A more broad vision.
Keep going, then. Any other country to mention, seeing how it’s important to you? Russia? China? Italy? India? Pakistan?
I somehow feel your “broad” is actually quite narrow. Usually happens with the whatabautisms
Why going so long when we have a near, english-speaking , clean example of a country famous for the free speech. If you have the highest example of human rights why check the rest.
So much from broadening… As soon as I mention any other suddenly there’s no point checking other countries.
While I don’t live in the UK I do believe they have protections on free speech.
If you are concerned you can always hide your identity.
I’m not living in uk, i live in italy. I saw every kind of comment written on italian social networks and i have never seen a conviction. When the police had taken the names of protesters, ( not arrested ) we had a public outcry. We had arrest for direct call for violence, not simply rants. So seeing people jailed for rants on twitter scares me. We have actual fascists and communists, both parties were strong, and we had an actual civil war. We have strong linguistic minorities and regional parties. So a lot of people hating each other. Who decide the right speech in such a situation?
Are people really jailed for rants in the UK? I’ve only seen stories of actual call to violence.
The line between rants and call for violence is quite blurred in some cases IMHO
Can you give an exemple of such case in the recent events in the UK?
I have some bad news for you. There is no right answer
And normaly it is very difficult to be comdemned for a generic rant. It is easier in case of insults or defamtion, but it is mostly an high fee. Jailing a political adversary for a speech ( when we had a lot of political/mafia killing in the past ) is a big no. We had actual people killed for their speech.
That movie director that got killed 50 years ago is a wild story.
Self defense is self defense, would we expect some different behavior from a country being attacked from outside interests with publicly accessible end to end encryption services?
Publicly accessible: reviewed and audited by hundreds of teams that confirmed there’s no backdoor. Venezuelan, Russian and Chinese governments didn’t find the holes, even having access to the code. If they did, they would be exploiting it to… reeducate.
Yeah, I would expect to trust that. Still, you said yourself, the problem is that is used by dissidents. And we can’t have that, right?
Open source, except when they do not publish it. Funded incredibly heavily buy the United States Intelegency Agencies. That would be more than enough to raise red flags for any nation that is not on the best terms with the United States.
Signal in all likelyhood is a honey pot
Funded by the US? Well thats the entire internet, including Tor, Linux and Matrix…
Amazing how much BS is spread here
The server is arguably more important, that is where the data and meta data itself are stored. Linux has never hid its source code for a year, and matrix can be self hosted.
I mean if you want to trust a honey pot go right ahead
Your claim about it being a honey pot is entirely baseless. There is a significantly better chance you are working for the US to prevent people from using signal…
they do seem to have blocked reddit and twitter
We can’t have individual thinkers running around can we. We need a shared vision that is dictated from the top down.
Like literal genocide being pushed from the top down as a pesky single issue vote? Our individual thinkers are too busy working 80hr weeks, btw.
For their own good. Individual thinkers tend to have short lives. Just look how many people thinked themselves of a window in Russia on the last year.
I’m pretty sure Venezuela was unstable before the US started getting involved.
Anyway Signal is secure so that shouldn’t be the problem. It has more to do with the government working to crush civil liberties and independent thought.
Same story in all authoritarian countries
First no Venezuela was stable before US medeling.
Second, “is secure” is quite a leap, it is funded to a sickening extent by the United States government, has gone about a year before opening up its source code, and is in the US where there is a law that says if the US government says show us everything and keep quiet, they have to do that. There are real concerns
Or you can uncriticaly say “Athoritarian Country” with no defineing term there, or real understanding of Athoritarianism and disreguard all concerns from these countries.
The US government funds it because they use it heavily. I think you should pay for software you use.
Also Venezuela has never really been stable. You could argue that the US made it worse but honesty the problem is everyone getting involved.
Would peer to peer apps be resistant to this sort of thing?
Yes, but you’ll have to install them from sources other than what governments deem official. Like F-droid.
Now, if they block p2p traffic that’s a different story
I am totally cool with F-droid.
It depends. Somehow it has to discover the peers. Other than that, they could block traffic between residential IP addresses and there goes large part of the P2P network
Russia and Venezuela are huge hotbeds of piracy from populations without access or capital to access most forms of entertainment.
Breaking P2P in this manner would basically be getting rid of the circus part of bread and circuses. Not a good move for an authoritarian.
Peer to peer apps do not work without a centralized relay to get you around the CG-Nat that cellphones live behind. So they’re not really peer to peer. You would be playing whack-a-mole with the relays, having to spin them up as they get blocked. Many ISPs implement CG-NAT as well. Its really dependent on how the network providers structure things. Someone from the country with local knowledge would have to test it.
IPv6 doesn’t need CGNAT. So as long as it’s capable of doing IPv6, it can directly communicate peer to peer using globally unique addresses. How do I know this? Simple because my ISP on IPv4 is completely CGNAT and I cannot get anything past it. So I am completely forced to use IPv6 for any service I want to run and access from outside my network.
Sure, but ipv6 is not widely adopted. I’m behind a CG-NAT but can’t get an ipv6 so I have to operate a vps bridge to host my services. Some cell networks have ipv6 support but a few implement a NAT for it as well. AT&T only allows port 80 and 443.
Its not consistent enough to be useful without a centralized relay.
I think that really depends on where you are. Here in the US, for example, IPv6 is pretty darn well adopted. And even 45% of Google’s internet traffic is done over IPv6.
Sure but if your looking to use a chat service, 45% is not a high enough watermark to have reliability. Its so contingent on the network operator to allow for an IPV6 connection. And like I said, places like AT&T have a NAT on their IPV6 network.
True, the only other option is something like simplex through tor. There are also p2p options like meshtastic as well.
Non ipv6 parts of the internet are considered derelict at at this point.
And… That doesn’t change the fact it’s not widely adopted enough for peer2peer chat services without the need of a relay.
IPv6 doesn’t need CGnet. So as long as it’s capable of doing IPv6, it can directly communicate peer to peer using globally unique addresses. How do I know this? Simple because my ISP on IPv4 is completely CG NAT and I cannot get anything past it. So I am completely forced to use IPv6 for any service I want to run and access from outside my network.
Signal honored!
why telegram is not blocked? makes you think…
WhatsApp supposedly uses Signal protocol.
Why is THAT not blocked? Certainly they wouldnt roll their own encryption and bypass Signal security protocols after having Moxie come in, right? Right???
Russia is reportedly planning to block WhatsApp as well.
It is owned by Meta and is proprietary
Telegram is not secure, I guess if you can listen to it better not block it.
I mean it was blocked before Signal was blocked. Russia somewhat famously badly broke their Internet trying to shutdown telegram… and eventually gave up.
I’m guessing Signal finally has enough market share to get the Russian government’s attention but not enough market share that they think the web of proxies that kept Telegram online will keep Signal online.
and eventually gave up
or maybe they came to an agreement on mutually beneficial terms
Maybe, maybe not, maybe I’m a duck in a suite.
On April 16, 2018, the Russian government began blocking access to Telegram, an instant messaging service. The blocking led to interruptions in the operation of many third-party services, but practically did not affect the availability of Telegram in Russia. It was officially unblocked on June 19, 2020
Some say it was unblocked because they made a deal with Durov. Another opinion is that too many people and services including officials continued to rely on it even during the time it was blocked. Regardless, Telegram did a huge job on circumventing those blocks.
It isn’t private
I wrote this, but I’d also like to add Drew Devault - Why I don’t trust signal. There’s a huge disconnect between what privacy advocates are saying about signal, and what reddit “privacy” communities think about it. If you read the article I linked, you’ll see its because the Open Technology Fund (a US state-run entity), actively pushes signal in privacy spaces.
Signal is secure and anyone who says it isn’t needs to have very strong evidence. It has been audited by hundreds of people at this point.
Source: trust me bro.
Seriously tho, that’s been most of the defense of signal advocates, with zero backup other than signal’s own claims. Signal is not self-hostable, and all the data lives on a centralized, US-domiciled server, subject to NSL requests (the US issues ~ 60 of them per day).
Unfortunately you can’t verify what their server stores, nor the metadata that they are legally required to share with the US government (which includes phone numbers, and your name and address).
BTW if signal is secure, can you give us your phone number, so we can use it with you?
Signal is end to end encrypted. Everything related to encryption happens inside the app. It doesn’t matter if the server is in mainland China it would still be secure. However, that doesn’t mean it is anonymous. Signal is pretty bad from that perspective.
You don’t need the phone number to contact someone with Signal.
Wrong, you need a phone number to create a signal account.
Yes, to create an account, but not to contact someone. You have an habit of being off the mark.
Also there is a difference between giving your phone number to some service and giving it to some random on the internet.
They must’ve added that recently then, but still doesn’t get around the fact that they’re required, which means signal (and likely the US government) knows exactly who you talk to and when.
Signal might be one of the most audited pieces of software in existence. Any criticism is likely either coming from or is supported by countries that fear encryption such as China, Russia and Iran.
The big downsides of Signal are that it requires a phone number and that is depends on Signals servers. That is it. You messages are completely safe as all messagers use the same underlying cryptography.
The audits mean nothing for a server domiciled in a Five-Eyes country. Signal has your phone number, and the other phone numbers you talk to (social connection graphs), and it is 100% illegal for them to tell you that they’ve been issued a national security letter divulging that information.
You shouldn’t trust a server to do your computing for you. Assume any data the server has about you to be available to all.
The entire protocol is build under the assumption that you do not need to trust the servers. Let the NSA have then, it doesnt matter. On the other hand 95% of Matrix users are hosted on Matrix.org which was not only hacked several times, but would be an ideal target for any agency to compromise. Its naiive to belive the big Matrix hosts arent compromised. The only effective defense is to build your system around the assumption that the server is compromised, which is what Signal did.
Metadata is data. While we can be pretty sure that message contents are secure we have to rely on trust for the metadata.
I use Signal and trust it way more than most other apps but still, one have to be careful, a state actor could still find ways.
Honestly I would’ve expected it to be blocked much earlier